Subjects: Labor’s visa and immigration policy shambles; the Prime Minister’s weak leadership; the PM’s misleading Question Time shocker; Labor’s cost of living crisis.
E&OE.
SARAH ABO:
We’re joined by the Opposition Leader, Peter Dutton in Canberra and NDIS and Government Services Minister, Bill Shorten in Melbourne. Good morning to you both.
BILL SHORTEN:
‘Morning.
PETER DUTTON:
‘Morning, Sarah.
SARAH ABO:
Pete, you’ve been accused of having ‘no heart’. Has anything changed overnight?
PETER DUTTON:
I just think if you’ve got no substance to your argument, you throw out those sort of lines, Sarah. What we’re talking about here is a national security issue. It’s a very important issue for our country because the Government’s made a dramatic change here. They’ve said that they’re going to allow people who have sympathy to a terrorist organisation, a listed terrorist organisation, to come into our country. They’ve allowed 1,300 people into our country on a tourist visa. No other country in the world has done that. Not even countries in the Middle East, adjoining countries – Jordan, Egypt – not the United States, not the United Kingdom, not France. Nobody has done this.
I think the Prime Minister has clearly had a political motivation here. He sees political dividend in bringing people in from a war zone controlled by a listed terrorist organisation at the moment, and I think it deserves to be called out.
I mean the nonsense and the rhetoric you’ve heard from the hard left and zealots like Zali Steggall, who are just hard Greens – it’s just a nonsense. They’ve got no substance to their argument, and I don’t think the vast majority of Australians believe that the Albanese Government’s got their migration programme under control.
SARAH ABO:
I mean, some might accuse you of political point scoring yourself. Are you not unnecessarily escalating tensions here? You know that there are people in Gaza who already hold visas, and as you know, this is a war zone, it’s near impossible for Palestinians to even get out of Gaza right now?
PETER DUTTON:
But again, Sarah, no other country in the world has done this. Not the US, not France…
SARAH ABO:
But they’re not able to even get out though, Pete.
PETER DUTTON:
…not Germany, not Jordan – but 1,300 people are here and 3,000 have visas, and the Government hasn’t even done face-to-face interviews.
They brought people in on tourist visas, like if you’re coming from New Zealand or from the UK. It’s without precedent, and it’s another decision of Andrew Giles, who since has been sacked, but we know that, I mean, this is a guy who released 152 criminals from immigration detention when he didn’t need to do so, and…
SARAH ABO:
You’re right there about the numbers that are already here with these visas, Pete…
PETER DUTTON:
…some of those people have gone on to commit further serious crimes.
SARAH ABO:
…but I just want to – I mean, the visas, obviously some have been granted. There are many thousands rejected – 7,000. Is that not a sign of the system working?
PETER DUTTON:
Sarah, they’ve brought people in without doing interviews, from a war zone that’s controlled by Hamas, a listed terrorist organisation in our country. It’s the case on the ground that by all of the polling – there are four or five different companies who are doing polling there – between 40 and 70 per cent of people have a sympathy for this listed terrorist organisation. So, I just think we need to be very careful. We’re a generous country and we’re a great country because of migration, but you need to manage our migration programme well. It’s not just this, the country’s under huge pressure at the moment in the housing industry, because the Prime Minister’s brought a million people in over two years, and we’ve only built 250,000 homes.
SARAH ABO:
Yeah, I think…
PETER DUTTON:
He’s created a housing crisis in our country, by not managing the migration programme well. So, every element of the migration programme just is not working in our country’s best interests at the moment.
SARAH ABO:
…yeah. I think they’re two separate issues now. We’re talking about the issue at the moment with Palestinians. Bill, is the Government conducting face-to-face interviews?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, no, of course. But it’s part of the migration programme that the Government’s presiding over, which normally happens…
SARAH ABO:
I just want to ask Bill if the Government is…
PETER DUTTON:
…They lose control of our borders in different ways.
SARAH ABO:
We will come to that, Pete. But just Bill, if I could ask you whether the Government is actually conducting these face-to-face interviews and if you’re not, is Australia’s national security, then, at risk?
BILL SHORTEN:
Hang on, hang on. Hang on, Sarah, Pete’s had about a three minute gallop around the paddock there. There’s a whole heap of stuff that’s got to be addressed and if I don’t address it, it just distorts the debate.
I think you’ve gone to the heart of the issue: 1,300 people are here from this war-torn zone, 7,100 have been rejected. The Government is following the procedures. No one, it doesn’t matter where you’re from, gets to this country without being checked against the Movement Watch List [sic] and being vetted.
If Peter thinks that one of the 1,300 people here is a security risk, he should come forward with his evidence. Don’t sit on information you know. It’s okay to use the sort of spooky music and imply that all Gazans are terrorists – which is what you’re effectively doing – I’m sure there are plenty of people in Gaza who are Hamas supporters, and Hamas is terrible, but please don’t tell me – and like I’m a middle of the road sort of person – please don’t insult the intelligence of Aussies and say that everyone from that area is a bad person. We’ve rejected 7,100 of them…
PETER DUTTON:
Nobody’s saying that, Bill.
BILL SHORTEN:
…We’ve got 1,300 here. We’re doing the procedures which…
PETER DUTTON:
Nobody is saying that. That is just a ridiculous assertion.
BILL SHORTEN:
Well, but if you’d…
PETER DUTTON:
Peter, you are saying that by saying they’re all sympathisers.
BILL SHORTEN:
Well okay, it’s funny you now call that a ridiculous assertion.
You are saying that!
SARAH ABO:
Do you think, Bill that…
PETER DUTTON:
Of course I’m not, Bill.
BILL SHORTEN:
Well no, okay.
PETER DUTTON:
Again, let’s have an intellectual debate about it. No other country in the world has brought 1,300 people in.
BILL SHORTEN:
Okay.
PETER DUTTON:
No other country in the world, in their right mind, would not do face-to-face interviews with people who are coming out of a war zone. When we took 12,000 people out of Syria, we did biometrics tests and we took months. I was criticised at the 12 month mark for not having issued all the visas. We did the biometrics tests and we checked against the intelligence database holdings to make sure we weren’t bringing anyone here. The fact is that you and the Prime Minister cannot look the Australian public in the eye and verify the authenticity of the applications that have been made. Maybe the vast majority of people coming through the programme are fine, but I don’t know because you haven’t done the checks. That’s the reality, and the Prime Minister misled the Parliament this week in that regard…
BILL SHORTEN:
Well, the reality is that they have been checked.
PETER DUTTON:
He was caught out lying, and he…
BILL SHORTEN:
If you say that, alright mate. I don’t…
PETER DUTTON:
No, he misquoted the Director-General of ASIO – which was a disgrace.
BILL SHORTEN:
Come on, if you want to have a debate, there’s two people in it.
If you say that there are no checks – if you say there are no checks being done, why have 7,100 been rejected? Righto, dead air, ok.
PETER DUTTON:
Bill, you approved people in 24 hours…
BILL SHORTEN:
And you have been saying, Pete…
PETER DUTTON:
In 24 hours they got a visa, were they properly checked?
BILL SHORTEN:
Well, what about the 7,100 who’ve been rejected? Like, I think that’s a proof point. If you genuinely believe that one of these 1,300 people is a bad person, don’t sit on the evidence, bring it forward. Don’t sit on evidence just to score points. If you think in your heart of hearts that one of these 1,300 people got in when they shouldn’t have got in, help the Government keep the nation safe rather than just, you know, run around.
SARAH ABO:
I mean, look, we could talk about this for much more time. We sadly don’t have any more time, but the bottom line is ASIO is doing its job, and these policies have been in place since the Coalition Government as well. But let’s move on now, a record number of Australians are in work…
PETER DUTTON:
That is not true, Sarah. That is not true.
SARAH ABO:
…Or searching for a job as the Australian Bureau of Statistics…
PETER DUTTON:
Sarah, I…
SARAH ABO:
Go on, Pete.
PETER DUTTON:
I’m sorry. I just want to correct that because what you said there is not true…
BILL SHORTEN:
Sorry, I couldn’t hear you, Sarah, over Peter’s interruptions.
PETER DUTTON:
…it’s not the same settings as we had when we were in Government. That is not correct.
BILL SHORTEN:
Pete, if you think one of these 1,300 is a bad person, put up or shut up.
PETER DUTTON:
Do we back the work of ASIO? Of course we do. But the Government has made the changes…
BILL SHORTEN:
Put up or shut up.
SARAH ABO:
We are running out of time.
PETER DUTTON:
…let’s be honest about it.
SARAH ABO:
Yeah, we’re trying to get to the bottom of it. Anyway…
BILL SHORTEN:
Pete, put up or shut up, mate. If one of the 1,300 is a bad person, tell us, please. We’ll take action.
SARAH ABO:
Let’s move on, if you don’t mind. A record number of Australians are in work…
PETER DUTTON:
Well, you wouldn’t know, Bill.
SARAH ABO:
…let’s focus on what’s happening at home at the moment…
BILL SHORTEN:
Good idea.
SARAH ABO:
…are searching for a job, as the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows an increase in the unemployment rate. Bill, unemployment has jumped by 58,000, but it seems while Australians are working more, they’re actually earning less. So what does that all mean?
BILL SHORTEN:
Well, what it means is that as a Government, we have been in charge at a time of the creation of more jobs, in a record period of time than any Government before us. So, that’s good news. It’s always difficult if people can’t find work, but more jobs have been created in the first two years of the Albanese Government than in the first two years of any new Government in Australia.
In terms of wages, it is a battle. It is a battle. But what I also know is that under our policies, the early childhood educators are going to get a pay rise. So, that’s 200,000 hardworking people who are low paid – 95 per cent of them are women – going to get a pay rise and a good one. We’re also seeing that all these people who go to work every day and make this country the best country in the world, are getting decent tax cuts from the 1st of July.
SARAH ABO:
Yeah. I mean, look, obviously the cost of living battle is…
BILL SHORTEN:
Which is good. A bit of good news.
SARAH ABO:
…yeah, is still an issue, but Pete, these numbers are in line with the Reserve Bank expectations, which means that a rate hike is hopefully unlikely.
PETER DUTTON:
I hope that’s the case, Sarah. I really hope that interest rates can come down soon because there are a lot of families at the moment who can’t pay their bills. They’re struggling not just with their mortgage repayments, but their grocery bill’s gone through the roof, your electricity bill and your gas bill’s gone through the roof. The Government promised it was going to come down by $275, and it’s gone up by $1,000. So, I just think people are really under the pump at the moment, and the Government’s had decisions that they’ve made, which could have made it easier for families, but have put pressure on the Reserve Bank to put rates up. When you’ve got the UK, Canada, New Zealand, reducing interest rates at the moment, Australia is talking about increasing interest rates under this Government, and that’s a disaster for families and small businesses.
SARAH ABO:
Alright. We have run out of time.
BILL SHORTEN:
Okay, one number back at Pete: inflation was six per cent, now it’s three – 3.8.
SARAH ABO:
Look, I know you two could debate issues all day long, but unfortunately Pete, Bill, we do have to go.
Thank you so much for your time today, appreciate it.
[ends]