Subjects: Ambassador Rudd; US election outcomes; industrial relations; income tax; Labor’s cost of living crisis; abortion.
E&OE.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Well, what lessons, if any, is the Coalition taking from Donald Trump’s considerable victory in the United States? Opposition Leader Peter Dutton is really a key person in all of this and he joins us this morning.
Peter Dutton, welcome back to Breakfast.
PETER DUTTON:
Pleasure, Patricia. Thank you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Will Kevin Rudd remain in his role under a Coalition Government?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ve supported Kevin Rudd and we’ve made public commentary before about our support of the Ambassador. It’s important that he does work in our country’s name. He’s been a very effective contributor to public debate, particularly as a former Prime Minister, he’s well respected. I hope that he’s able to form a relationship with the new Administration as he’s done with the current one.
The comments by Penny Wong, or by Anthony Albanese, or by Kevin Rudd, or whoever it might be – I mean, that’s an issue for the Prime Minister to deal with. My responsibility and my objective is to make sure that we put Australia first and that we get the best possible outcome for our country. We can do that if we’ve got a good relationship between the Ambassador – our highest ranked official in the United States, or whatever country it might be – and the Government of that country.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Would the Opposition like to see Scott Morrison having a role here?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again, Kevin Rudd is in the role and he has a term to finish and then following that term, that’s an issue for the Government of the day to decide who would be in that role. I think Joe Hockey, for example, did a great job when he was Ambassador. We were able to, along with Arthur Sinodinos, work on important issues, including AUKUS and negotiate that.
I met with Kevin in Washington not too long ago. As you would expect, he’s got an incredible work ethic, but he’s made disparaging comments and that’s an issue for the Government to deal with. I had a very good relationship with Kim Beazley when he was the Ambassador in Washington as well. So, I think people of both political types have gone to that position, they bring gravitas to the office, and I hope that there can be good work done in our country’s name.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Do you think Donald Trump’s proposed tariffs on imports will increase inflation and be bad for our economy?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, tariffs do increase inflation, and that’s been the experience and economists obviously will point to many examples. If there is a tariff applied, people are paying higher prices for goods, it’s going to make it more difficult, particularly for trading nations like Australia. So that will be one of the key discussion points between the Prime Minister and the President-elect – and obviously Mr Rudd and others will be central to those conversations.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Anthony Albanese will use Malcolm Turnbull’s argument that Australia is one of the few nations to have a trade surplus with the US, to try to stop Donald Trump from imposing tariffs of up to 20 per cent on our imports. Do you think that’s the right approach?
PETER DUTTON:
I think it is the right approach, and I think there are other points that I’m sure the Prime Minister will make. I’ll be first in line supporting the Government in putting forward Australia’s case because we produce more than we can consume in our country. We’re a relatively wealthy nation, we can support people through the social welfare system, through the NDIS, etc., because of mining and agriculture and other export industries. We need to make sure that we’re internationally competitive, and it’s more difficult to do that, obviously, if tariffs are applied. I’ll do everything I can in our country’s interest to help those producers and manufacturers because they create jobs and they create wealth for our country.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Let’s talk about some domestic issues. You’ve declared the Liberal Party, the party of the worker. So are you prepared to fight on an election issue like industrial relations, which of course, materially affects workers?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, if we’re going to see industrial relations practices which send businesses to the wall, there are no jobs in that business, and as we know, over the last two years under this Government, there’s been a threefold increase in the closure of manufacturing businesses. Now, some of them have gone bankrupt, others have just decided it’s too expensive to do business in Australia and they’ve gone to Malaysia, or they’ve gone to the United States, or wherever it might be, and we lose the economic productivity, we lose the jobs and nobody wins in that scenario.
So, we want an industrial relations system which protects workers, but also makes the relationship workable between employers and employees. I think there are aspects of what the Government’s proposing, or what they’ve legislated for at the moment that create a tension, frankly, where there was no tension in existence before. I think that’s part of the unions flexing of their muscle – the Government obviously is beholden to the union movement, the CFMEU influence in the Labor Party has been well-documented, etc.. and that will obviously influence the Government’s view.
My view is that we need to get a balance right and provide that support for workers as well as to make sure that businesses can survive.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So let me ask something very specific: will you take a plan to expand the small business definition from 15 to 25 employees to the election?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ll take our plan to the next election, and we’ll announce our plan well before the next election…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Do you think that’s a good idea to expand the definition of small business?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ll take our plan, Patricia, to the next election.
The point about small business is that they’re at a disadvantage, to say, the Commonwealth Bank, or Wesfarmers, where they have general counsel in house, they’ve got a whole HR department.
If you’re a local cafe at the moment and your business results, you know, your turnover’s down by 40 per cent, people aren’t buying a second coffee during the day, or they’re buying a coffee every second day, or they’re ordering a muffin instead of a full meal; those businesses are suffering at the moment and they don’t have the scale, or the advantage that big business does.
There are lots of small business operators you speak to at the moment, and I think it’s evidenced in the numbers who are closing up shop and just can’t make their businesses work. That’s bad for them, but it’s bad…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
…so you’re sympathetic to that idea? You know me, I’m going to go back – 15 to 25, do you think that has merit as an idea?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, and, you know me too…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I do.
PETER DUTTON:
My desire is to support small business, and we’re unashamedly strong supporters of small business, particularly when we’ve got a Government that’s done so much harm to them.
I want them to employ more casuals and more permanents, and I want their business to grow, not shrink.
In relation to the industrial relations policy, we’ll make that announcement before the next election.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Will you announce a tax policy that gives higher income earners a tax cut still? Is that still on the cards?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again, we supported stage one, stage two, stage three of the tax cuts from when we were in government. Stage one and two in particular – well stage three as well – all of it was designed to address the evil of bracket creep. So people are paying more tax each year as they get a pay rise, even if the tax rates stay where they are right now.
So, the idea of the stage one and two was to provide income tax relief to people on lower incomes, and then people on medium to higher incomes were the objective under stage three. Now, the Government changed that, we supported that change, and…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
It was a good change, wasn’t it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, any tax cut is a good change and any way that you can address bracket creep is good, because it is the silent thief in the night, where you’ve just had a pay increase at work, you’ve been bumped into the next tax category and you’ve done nothing more than work hard, work some more overtime, get a promotion at work, the latest EBA has meant that you’re earning more, but you’re actually paying more tax. So if there are ways in which we can help people, we’ll do that, but it’ll largely be dependent on what the numbers are coming into the next election as to how much…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Oh, that’s really interesting, so you don’t think necessarily there may be room to provide a tax cut to higher income earners looking at the budget?
PETER DUTTON:
Well look, the Government’s on a spending spree at the moment, which is why inflation’s high and it’s why interest rates are staying higher for longer, and the Reserve Bank Governor has pointed this out. Australians are paying more for their mortgages now than they should.
I think the priority, to be honest, is to get inflation down, to get interest rates down and to support jobs in the economy, because I think we’re coming into a difficult period. I think a lot of families are well and truly experiencing that difficulty right now, and unfortunately for many of them…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So you can’t say the economic case for a tax cut for higher income earners? Which was on the cards, but you’re sort of thinking that now the budget’s showing that you can’t do that.
PETER DUTTON:
I think it just depends on where the numbers are as we go into the election and how much money is available and how we prioritise our spending and how we do it in a way which is targeting inflation, so that interest rates can come down.
I was talking to one of the banks the other day, somebody on a mortgage of $500,000 is paying an extra $1,800 a month in repayments, and they’re only getting, with a quarter of a per cent reduction in interest rates, about $80 a month in terms of relief of repayments. I just think there are a lot of families out there at the moment who just can’t make their budget work, and we have to make sure that we’re spending money in the economy, it’s not driving up inflation.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay. So you’re worried it would be also a bad look, wouldn’t it? To give a tax cut to higher income earners right now?
PETER DUTTON:
Patricia, I’m worried about the way in which we can help bring down inflation. I think when you look at people talk about lessons out of the US and the rest of it, I think when families are struggling, when small businesses are closing their doors, they want to know that a Government is there to help, not hinder them, and at the moment, the Albanese Government’s presided over three budgets, and they’re in a situation where they’re making it harder for Australians, not easier. I want to put downward pressure on interest rates, not upward pressure, and that’s exactly what the Reserve Bank Governor has been warning about.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
We’ve only got a couple of minutes left, so let me just ask a couple of things. In your Party Room, you told people not to basically make abortion a national issue. And then I was curious, what is your personal view on abortion?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, my view is that I live in the state of Queensland and I have a law in Queensland. It’s similar to some other states, it’s different to other jurisdictions and I don’t propose to advocate for a change in that law…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Do you support abortion?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course I do, and I support a woman’s right to choose. I’ve been in very difficult circumstances where, as a detective working in the sex offenders squad, I’ve dealt with women who have been raped, I’ve dealt with women in domestic relationships who have been raped, it’s a very, very difficult situation. Ultimately, that’s a choice and a decision for that individual to make, and that’s the position I support.
Importantly to point out, if Labor chooses to use the issue of abortion at the next election, people know that it is probably the cheapest, most crass political effort in our recent history, because abortion laws are not an issue for the Federal Government, as you well know.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But there is a federal law. Senators Alex Antic and Matt Canavan have a bill. Would you like them to withdraw it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, again, we cannot change the abortion laws at a federal level, so let’s not…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But would you like them to withdraw it?
PETER DUTTON:
No, I’m not advocating that they withdraw their bill, or put it forward. They as Senators, as the Labor Senators, the Greens Senators, David Pocock, the Independents have the right to put forward a Private Member’s Bill. In most cases – 99 per cent of the cases – the bill won’t get forward unless it’s got the support of the Government. So, if the Government’s playing games, then that’s an issue for them, but for us, our Senators have the right to put…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Peter Dutton, we’re out of time.
PETER DUTTON:
…their own bills forward and it can be voted on, on that basis.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Peter Dutton, come back again because I have a couple of other questions.
[ends]